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    • POEM: Invictus by William Ernest Henley (12/24/2009 8:56:00 PM)

      And this is exactly why I love poetry. Though I wish my English were of such a caliber that I would write poetry myself, but as such I will stick with the poetry of sound (music) . I have read through the comments again, and this has only reestablished my love for this poem. It has excited and urged people to think and evaluate it and was able to produce a whole myriad of emotions and beliefs. I think I might commit this poem to memory.

      You are most welcome Basra :) .

      And Will, you bring up a most fascinating argument. I definitely can see that, and can agree with that. I have read and analyzed the poem again and found that for me the speaker of the poem is President Mandela and not Henley. An interesting discovery on my part but not surprising seeing as I am South African. As such, what you wrote rings very true.

      Again, this will be one of the poems I have decided to commit to memory.

    • POEM: Invictus by William Ernest Henley (12/22/2009 12:44:00 AM)

      To answer Basra's question: No, unfortunately it is virtually impossible, and it does not end with religion and faith. People tend to formulate arguments on first impressions, unfortunately I myself fall victim to this now an then but try to avoid it, and will happily follow that to the grave with no more thought than was initially formulated. With no more research they would vehemently argue their points, not with the conviction of being correct but for the dislike of possibly being wrong. As such when an opposing argument is posed and research finally is done the research is then sadly but inevitably shaped and morphed to try to make their point work.

      I should point out though at this point that I am not pointing fingers at anyone. I really do not know anybody here but I am answering Basra's question on face value alone. I mean this also not only with religion and it is purely written from personal experience. Now to add my opinion about the poem:

      Poetry is read in two big and virtually equally important ways. The ephemeral way which is plain personal emotions and opinions that are generated from read the poem initially. That does mean that there are as many meanings to a poem as there are people on this earth. This can be the greatest strength or weakness to a poem. People tend to argue and get offended here for the fact that the two 'meanings' do not match. This is a sad truth and happens here all over the place. As such, the artistry and aesthetics is then completely lost in personal differences and it deviates from a discussion of the myriads of meanings the poem evoked to the countless differences in philosophical and social opinions of people. The poet himself falls under this same category. He too has an opinion when he wrote it equally as valid and is the only other opinion that really should be kept in mind when reading any poetry.

      That being said, there is a different way of reading the poem and can be equally as powerful. The meaning of the poem line by line. It is here that the biggest contention seems to erupt. By the sheer line 'whatever gods may be' it is most definitely either agnostic or atheist in nature and as such formulate the meaning of the rest of the poem. This might not have been the intention of the poet, but that is what it comes down to. As I am not the be all and end all of all poetry, and I am not the master of psychology, linguistics and sociology I have to say that this is my opinion, but I find it hard to read that line any other way. But it is about a person suffering and meaning his oppression or strife head on, and it seems to be more a focus on that than on religion and as such can loose its importance to those who do believe in a God. Words in this way are very powerful and people tend to forget that the meanings can have dire effects, whether intended or not, by there sheer meaning and this is unavoidable.

      Now that that whole part is over I virtually agree with Basra on every point, and that is my opinion generated from my ephemeral reading of the poem. I believe that the comments here have slightly shied away from a discussion, which I think is suppose to be the whole purpose of this section, to a whole array of arguments. At which point I am fully agreeing with Jon Harris as well.

      I like this poem, though it has points I philosophically disagree with, but I do feel a bond with the speaker of the poem and as such I give this poem a 8.9/10.